I understand why Augustine said this but I am trying to think of the implications of such...

I agree that the Lord does not just want a mere external action devoid of loving Him and wanting to please Him. As you say, this is "forced obedience." But what if the person is ignorant of a command of Christ, is then informed by the Spirit of God, and then proceeds to obey the Lord while perhaps still not understanding the "why" (and may indeed still be "unwilling" in the body and mind) -- is this still considered "not doing right?"

Posted by: David on Tuesday, June 14, 2005

Your interpretation of this is the same as mine - God does not want obedience that is external only. I think your scenario is a great example of proper obedience. That person is humbly submitting to God without understanding the command.

The Israelites grumbled against God in the wilderness but still followed Moses (probably because there wasn't much else they felt they could do). That is an example of unwilling obedience.

Augustine was thinking of himself in his childhood when he wrote this. A child who obeys a parent only due to fear of punishment does not understand what it means to obey your parents - though I am sure we were all there at some point.

Posted by: CJ Costello on Tuesday, June 14, 2005

I will add that I sometimes do things because they are expected of me rather than because I want to do them. I may get credit for those good deeds by people here on earth, but Augustine is reminding me that I need to do them willingly.

Posted by: CJ Costello on Tuesday, June 14, 2005

I've seen some bad corrolaries develop and become doctrine from this though, one being that I need not obey until I am "ready" (i.e. "The Spirit just hasn't convicted me of that yet..."), and two, the commandments of God are looked at as legalistic (i.e. "Commands are only an Old Covenant phenomenon; all that matters now is grace"). Yet obeying the commands of Christ with a willing heart pleases God, and must not be called legalism.

We must remember what the Lord Jesus said, and the order of their occurence: "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). The love for Christ comes first (and that because He first loved us, 1 John 4:19), and an evidence or outgrowth of our love for Him is our keeping His commandments.

Posted by: David on Thursday, June 16, 2005

What God wants from us is a change of heart. As our heart changes towards God, we will desire to obey Him. But the change must come first, otherwise the rules are no good. So far I completely agree with you, David!

The idea of "I'm not ready to do that" could suggest a change of heart has not taken place. That would be a problem. On the other hand, the process of turning to God does take time. It is very easy for me to picture a new Christian having difficulty suddenly becoming obedient in every area of his or her life. I guess such a person could feel rather overwhelmed.

For this reason, I would not pounce on a new Christian and inform them that they must immediately give up everything they do that is wrong. From my perspective, I know they aren't ready yet.

I would strongly encourage a new Christian to find ways to grow in their faith and to get to know God more and more. Then, "if on some point they should think differently, that too God will make clear to them in His own time."

With that, I guess I'm a little uncomfortable with the wording of your first corollary. I'm afraid it could be used to manipulate a person into viewing a particular doctrine — especially a non-essential (to salvation)doctrine that there is reasonable grounds for disputing — exactly as one wants them to. I'm afraid it could be used in an un-loving manner.

Jesus did not walk into Zacchaeus's house and demand that he be honest and tithe. Instead, Zacchaeus's willingness to do so arose from his change of heart.

So, are we disagreeing, David?

And I have a question for you: How do you handle OT commands about, say, not weaving two different types of fabric together? Would you agree that there are certain commands that probably do not need to be followed? How do you think we can tell which need to be followed?

Posted by: Shannon on Saturday, June 18, 2005

Shannon, many of the OT commandments God gave Israel are hard for us to understand. But if God gave those commands to His people whom He redeemed, I believe He had good reason to do it. We're not under law (Mosaic law), but God still calls us to obedience today. Are we in the place to pick and choose which commands (I'm speaking New Covenant commands) we obey and which ones we jettison?

I think I have a problem with the wording, "non-essential (to salvation) doctrine." People often look at some particular doctrine in the NT as a "minor point," or "negotiable." They might say, "the Gospel is the most important thing," or "Christ's deity is paramount"...Do we have this right though to rank doctrines in the NT? I will agree the Gospel comes FIRST (in order) in the believer's life (1 Cor. 15, the NIV translation is misleading when it says "of first importance," that is, "this is the most important thing"--the literal translation is "first of all [in order]"). Yes some things are weightier than others as Christ so scathed the Pharisees, but you'll notice that Christ instructed them to do the weightier matters WITHOUT neglecting the "minor issues" (tithing of mints, etc). I feel very uncomfortable saying one thing is more "important" than another for a Christian as revealed in Scripture. God wants the whole package, and yes, this may take time for a young believer, but boy, when the Spirit reveals something that needs to be heeded, the person ought to be humble enough to accept it and obey!

Posted by: David on Monday, June 20, 2005

I completely agree that many OT commands are hard to understand and I completely agree that God still wants obedience from us.

I think we are just coming at this from different perspectives. Possibly we both agree that

1) Not all OT commands need to be followed.
2) Obedience may take some time, especially for a new believer.
3) Once a person become aware he is being disobedient in a certain area, he ought to humbly obey.

I think that "minor point" and "negotiable" are two very different ideas. I was thinking of the former and not the latter in my earlier comment!

Jesus ranked things, to a certain extent, when he spoke of the two greatest commands. Actually, I don't think we are really disagreeing on that either. We both think some doctrines are more important than others. I think you are more concerned that the smaller matters will be neglected.

What if I said that I think that many, many people who claim to be followers of Jesus today are neglecting the weightier issues, let alone the smaller ones? I have this scary idea that there is a remnant within the church, meaning that I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of church goers are not really saved. (And no, I haven't read any Left Behind books!)

With that in mind, I will tend to push the things I see as more important — developing a relationship with God through prayer, Bible study, learning to love, and meeting with fellow believers.

Also, in the passage you mentioned with the Pharisees and their mint, Jesus says they are neglecting righteousness, justice, mercy...I find I'm taking a really long time to get on track in those areas. It is easy to be unjust and unmerciful when one deals with people. And I am far from righteous...I struggle every day to think the things I'm supposed to think...you know, the things I want to think I do not think, and the things I do not want to think, these I think!

I'm glad you mentioned the Holy Spirit in your comment...it's nice to remember we have some assistance in these matters!

Posted by: Shannon on Monday, June 20, 2005

Shannon wrote, "I have this scary idea that there is a remnant within the church, meaning that I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of church goers are not really saved." You are absolutely right in light of the seven churches in Revelation.

There is ample historical evidence to show that the seven churches typify the history of the church as a whole, and I believe we are in (as a whole) the age of Laodicea, that church that the Lord Jesus condemned for its lukewarmness. Your words parallel the Lord Jesus' words: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...etc" (3:20). We use this (rightfully) as a gospel verse, but in its context the Lord is on the outside of His beloved church! He is knocking, desiring to be let in, yet they thought they had no need of Him (for they were "rich"). Not only are the believers lukewarm, but there is imitation within (Matt. 13), where many profess to know God, but in their works deny Him (Tit. 1:16). This is without question characteristic of the church as a whole today.

Posted by: David on Tuesday, June 21, 2005

Application gets tricky on this one. The temptation for me is to start looking at everyone else but myself...looking at their specks and missing my planks!

I really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the people around me (of course, there is no one in the house right now but me, so I'm ok there!). It doesn't do a whole lot of good to complain about other people because I'm the only one I can change.

I think God is calling all of us to chase after Him and want to be with Him the same way King David did.

The whole issue of complacency is big in the OT, too. The minor prophets tend to talk about it a lot. I find that sort of thing interesting because whether I'm reading the OT or the NT, it is still the same God, wanting the same things from us.

Posted by: Shannon on Tuesday, June 21, 2005